A good half hour of chat preceeded this part, the usual local pub chat...You have to be there to get the hang of it...
AT 8pm west I started with a description of a typical demo, some background and then went on to more specific answers....
....
A Aronson : Hay-Ohhhh!
HMann : (saying a small protocol prayer...)
AFC Kai : let me paste in a bunch of lines ok?
AFC Kai : and then I will open the floor to q & a
AFC Kai : its too complicated with 40+ people to get totally
interactive yet
AFC Kai : A good friend of mine, Andreas, is an editor of the
French “SVMac” magazine. He called me a month ago
AFC Kai : John Wilczak (prez HSC) and I changed our itinerary
{to Cebit} blindly. In Paris we met with them & saw the stuff
AFC Kai : The demo started with opening a 130 Megabyte file, in
about 12 seconds(!). On a naked Q950
AFC Kai : no extra cards. The file was placed, scaled and
rotated in one step(!), in about 3 seconds (!)
AFC Kai : He then opened a second file, 80 Megs, and placed it
behind, in a layer.
AFC Kai : A brush of about 3 inches (equiv to 800x800 or more)
was used to brush-in the image, selectively
AFC Kai : in smooth realtime Wacom pressure strokes.
AFC Kai : He used a distortion brush to then create a manual
realtime twirl-like effect.
AFC Kai : Then he zoomed in to an area inside the twirl, a
minute detail of maybe 4x4 pixels on screen:
AFC Kai : the zoom regenerated the image at full screen
1180x870 size and NOT A SINGLE PIXEL was visible!!
AFC Kai : all curves were preserved at full resolution. I was
sweating !!
AFC Kai : At that zoom setting he inserted an 80 megabyte image
of a face. Zoomed into the eye
AFC Kai : and in the pupil, at full size, pasted in yet another
80 megabyte image of a car
AFC Kai : In the zoomed spoke of the car he then pasted another
80 megabyte image of a golden chalice
AFC Kai : We are now in a base resolution of easily 16000x12000
if not more...
AFC Kai : He takes a 'lighten' brush and makes the gold
selectively brighter making several passes
AFC Kai : until some parts are just solid white. (the data
would normally be totally lost!)
AFC Kai : Now he said 'ooops' and picks up the darkening brush
and brings it all back, selectively (!!!)
AFC Kai : He clicked on an area and a window pops up showing
each layer one by one.
AFC Kai : He deletes a layer in the middle, groups three other
layers and rotates them in 3 seconds (!!!!)
AFC Kai : one layer is JUST the lightening, which he moves a few
inches, until they lighten something ELSE...(!)
AFC Kai : he inserts a layer behind that. Loads another
100 Megabyte image and performs a masking
AFC Kai : and frisket operation and pastes it via a gradient (!)
directly
AFC Kai : The demo finally had a gigabyte (!) of components
without any slowdown of the brushes.
AFC Kai : He now zooms all the way out until the entire
composite image is only 3 inches in the center
AFC Kai : of the screen (this must be like Photoshop in 1 : 512
or worse...if there WERE such a mode)
AFC Kai : At THAT size he picks a brush, sets a direction &
creates a motion blur trail behind the whole thing !
AFC Kai : I threw up.
AFC Kai : We talked about what this can be compared to. Quantel
Paintbox, Scitex ? Barco Creator, daVinci
AFC Kai : The technology is comprised of two things: a file
format called IVUE
AFC Kai : and the equations keeping track of all operations:
FITS
AFC Kai : There are no pixels (!) until the final 'validation'
rasterize RIP stage,
AFC Kai : when one can request it at any size, any resolution.
AFC Kai : It is a very very VERY fundamental approach to
dealing with images and is so totally different
AFC Kai : from Photoshop or Painter or any of that, its not
even funny!
AFC Kai : Ideally its NOT the Photoshop/Painter "killer"
AFC Kai : let me repeat that: NOT NOT NOT against, but much
rather WITH !!! {this is VERy important to me}
AFC Kai : LP cannot compete with 6 years of featuritis but its
"the perfect extension".
AFC Kai : Where “they” hit the brickwall, this continues.
AFC Kai : The first app, Live Picture, will ship in a month in
France for about $5k.
AFC Kai : Absolute peanuts for what it does.
AFC Kai : The company is now called Advanced Imaging, before
that Sunline.
AFC Kai : The guy who wrote it is Bruno Delean, he spent 5 years
doing it, too. And I believe him when he says that.
AFC Kai : Live Picture is really just a demo of the
base technology though,
AFC Kai : kinda like Illustrator 1.0 for Postscript.
AFC Kai : Obviously someone could write Freehand and Pagemaker
and Quark and Dimensions, etc...
AFC Kai : The basic idea is to license it as a standard, so
scanners can spit out IVUE
AFC Kai : or Quark could open up & reposition FITS files @600
Megs triple page spreads,180 lpi, in realtime.
AFC Kai : John organized a big suite at the Sheraton (no idea
how) and by Tuesday everyone was there! Everyone!
AFC Kai : The Seybold specialists and editors spent two hours
and on Thursday they handed out the award:
AFC Kai : The speech was more than anyone could have paid
for...lol:
AFC Kai : "We have not been this excited about a new technology
since 1968 when PostScript was shown"
AFC Kai : "The award for "most important fundamental new
technology” goes to ‘Live Picture’...."
AFC Kai : I heartily concur and I'll add: I PRAY that no ‘one’
company just locks this up exclusively
AFC Kai : or worse, throws it away...
AFC Kai : it should be just like Postscript: something licensed
on the ground level to many, many players...
AFC Kai : Business-wise and about our own involvement: I really
cannot make any specific comments yet.
AFC Kai : At the very, very least I look forward to generating
plug-ins in resolution independent form
AFC Kai : the motto is : No More Pixels!
AFC Kai : Everything is in a complete state of flux still and I
can't say final prices or who publishes what.
AFC Kai : Warnock, Sculley and Gates are peeking at it next
AFC Kai : and in more detail than todays Macweek cover story.
there are many more details anyway:
AFC Kai : for example: live Picture is true 48 bit color (which
is why the pres of Leaf got really excited)
AFC Kai : ok I will now answer stuff if we can get it done with
42 people lol....
AFC Kai : done
AFC Kai : over out
{ what followed is a happy melee of all kinds of goofy comments and banter.
Consider that a written transcript of a dinner party with 45 friends would be
equally odd and seemingly meaningless or silly. You just kinda had to be there.
The fact that many questions couldn’t be answered is not reflecting a choice on my part, just the nature of the stream flowing past the reader. I was typing as fast as I can, believe me...;) Also consider that usually in our chat HALF the action is
behind the scenes, in so called Instant Messages ‘IMs’, when any two people can ‘whisper’ to each other one-on-one. I often had a dozen or more such secondary chats
going as well. I will try to add a few answers in hind sight here now and edit some non-sequiturs and echoes....:} added stuff “>>>“
A Aronson : Is it compatible with the Talking Moose? ;)
JeffrySG : My heart just started again.... lol
>>> “lol” means ‘laughs out loud’....
AFC Kai : it really is A BIG deal guys
HMann : ?
>>> “?” protocol normally, not in my chat though
Miz Kitty : LOL!!!
MKlimshuk : Sounds like it...
Tearmoth : (Ignore the man behind the screen name) ;)
Eliza12w : I'm glad I wasn't late!
Miz Kitty : I'm in heaven, right?
Eliza12w : Tearmoth! LOL
Cyenobite : Applause
AFC Kathie : Kai, stop complaining about all these people being
here:) It works for MGR and you:)
>>> Kathie has her own chats..;)
R Thrash : What are the memory requirements for this technology?
>>> Right now 32 Megs. could slow down with less, could speed up again seriously
>>> with Jpeg though...see below
Eichenbaum : clap clap clap clap
LStanford1 : Jeez, I passed right by the Live Picture booth...now
I'm kicking myself!
MKlimshuk : Goofy question: they gonna be at Comdex?
>>> Comdex, not sure, MacWorld: you bet!
Eliza12w : OK, so who has the $5K and the party?
>>> earlier talk, HSC throwing a party in Atlanta, we got he whole hard rock cafe for ourselves...! neat
Devesh : I'm sorry I was late!!
Neka : with 42 people we should probable run protocol,
Adv Man : I must apologize for my rude outbreak...Im sorry I
typed S--- live and in full color.
>>> he got away with it ;)
Miz Kitty : Clapping for the Kai-meister!
HSC JW : 32 megs
PixelAnglo : MacWeek indicated that the changes were rendered to
pixels afterwards. correct?
>>> it lives in a no pixel world of pure math. Then in the final stage you
>>> request an output size and lpi/dpi density and it rasterizes. Until there
>>> is a direct FITS output machine they all do require a raster. However pixels
>>> as in screen elements are never part of it really, just a final raster with
>>> raster elements, whatever one wants to call those...
FotoGeek : I can't IMAGINE how you could store a photo w/o
pixels...use fractal equations?
>>> its different of course. No fractals... imported images have pixels of course
>>> its all the changes, brushes, composites, distorts etc etc etc that are
>>> pure math. You will never have any less than is in the original files though
>>> however, not any more information either. You start with a bad scan it will
>>> remain that way of course.
UnDoo : I ashamed to say I can't imagine not looking at
pixels.
Eliza12w : Oh we can be polite...
AFC Kathie : Rob? Kai, run protocol? Unheard of!!!!
HSC JW : Kai really hasn't told you but one tenth the story...
Luc : When? When? When?
AFC Kai : no protocol, out of principle,,, I will answer the
crap as I see it, ask again...ask me later
SpecularI : Whether its a pixel or not, it is represented on the
screen as pixels, so what is the internal
SpecularI : structure of how the image is defined?
>>> Thats the whole secret: FITS stores it all in equations. If you just draw
>>> with it, no inserted images, then you have nothing BUT formulas, truly no
>>> pixels at all.
R Thrash : Does more memory increase performance?
>>> I am not sure. I doubt it. There is a low limit though, 32 meg right now.
AFC Kai : John JW is the pres of HSC he was in there with me
AFC Kai : it was our private suite
Eichenbaum : What are the requirements for getting drum-scans into
this format?
>>> There is a converter program TIFF to IVUE...later the scanners may spit that out >>> directly. IVUE is larger than the original file: Think of IVUE as a reorganizer, >>> before you have a huge field full of cars, afterwards a parkinglot with roads. >>> you want car #4678 you can drive it out quickly = you want THIS section for a >>> screen full NOW, IVUE can get it....
HMann : Algorithm plus application? How does the technology
exist?
>>> The math is in the app, not unlike a ray tracer for instance
AFC Kai : ok maybe I can elucidate some more, not pasting
though
PixelAnglo : maybe just bits and bytes, but not rendered
graphically - perhaps... it's magic
AFC Kai : give me 10 continuous lines please:
AFC Kai : if you are rendering a ray tracer
AFC Kai : it will be very very slow
AFC Kai : so everyone has the “wireframe” mode
AFC Kai : for positioning
AFC Kai : no one in their right mind
AFC Kai : would position in ray trace mode
AFC Kai : what FITS is is essentially a wireframe preview mode:
AFC Kai : you postion and composite and so forth
AFC Kai : and in the end you say I like it and then it does the
RIP
AFC Kai : everything in between though is just like wireframe
REAL fast
AFC Kai : the no more pixels idea:
AFC Kai : when you use brushes and alll that nothing is
touchign the actual data
AFC Kai : thats why they can re darken the overwhitened screen
for instance
AFC Kai : they merely keep track of the brushes and all steps
in a formula
AFC Kai : a veryu very very large and complex one to be sure
Luc : the Macweek story mention that HSC will come out this
summer with a product using the technology
Luc : Care to comment?
>>> We want to develop at least FITS plugins, no matter where the technology ends up. Any more is too early to say. Our plugin package would be under $895 I should think...
Eliza12w : Ben do you understand it, the tech?
>>> At the time, Ben had not seen it. He has now and he does. Bruno is the only man who knows the actual inner workings, though.
UnDoo : When I zoom waaaayyyy in on a Live picture I dont see
pixels--just continuous tone?
>>> yes for all FITS operations, brushes, etc. Pictures pasted in will have a native resolution of course... but you CAN paste a 500x500 400dpi image right next to a 5000x5000 x72 dpi image and RETAIN their quality...(not true for any other app on the Mac!)
Eliza12w : (has Kai hilited, much easier)
KPT Dean : more like an ideal flexible resolution
Neka : Kai, what kind of file size/times do we get after
ripping?
>>> pretty reasonable in my experience. Speed is roughly 15 minutes for a decent size output file...in the gigabyte examples that can go up to some hours, but still
ridiculous minute fractions of other means. And: its your final stage, you can go to bed then, and/or you can help that with horsepower soon.
KPT Julie : hi guys! :)
KPT Dean : Hi Julie!
AFC Kathie : JULIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eliza12w : Hi Julie!
AFC Kai : the guy spent 5 years writing this!
AFC Kai : very special guy, too
JeffrySG : but you still need large (80mb) images to start with?
>>> you don’t NEED them...its just that the advantages grow exponentially past 10-20 meg components...say like a PhotoCD scan at 18megs.
Adv Man : Hi Julie
Eliza12w : a genius I'm sure.
AFC Kai : writes the code on paper and has other people type it
in for him
AFC Kai : almost Rainman like...great guy
Eliza12w : Need or want?
Arlo1 : Woah!
AFC Kathie : Hey, Heber, hoe goes it?:)
AFC Kai : when he got the award he couldnt read the speech with
the bright lights
AFC Kai : so he turned his back to the audience and read it in
his shadow!
AFC Kai : they all were on the floor
MKlimshuk : Got a question: Isn't the whole thing kind of
overkill? Presses (assuming you're into print) +
MKlimshuk : can only handle so much.
AFC Kai : Overkill?
AFC Kai : are you kidding>?
AFC Kai : have you tried to make a full page composite even
just with a bunch of PhotoCD scans?
AFC Kai : llet alone a really clean cover file?
AFC Kai : I am routinely waiting a LOOONG time to get these
things done....
AFC Kathie : Kit!!!! Hiya :)
Heber : Hello; what're y'all talking about?
HSC JW : no you don't need 80 meg files to start with but you
can easily work with them...
HMann : Kai - is there an asynchronous conversion process to
get to the IVUE format?
>>> Yes the TIFF to IVUE app is part of it...takes 0.5 - 2 seconds per megabyte or something like that
Eliza12w : HEber, believe us, get the log
KitP : hi, how much have I missed?
Heber : one of those, eh?
HMann : Advertising industry will be dramatically affected
>>> You bet
Eliza12w : Is IVUE comparable in function to JPEG, not in
process but purpose?
>>> Very very very different. In fact given that Jpeg is a lossy compression
its almost the opposite... JPEG plays into it though: read below
AFC Kai : another analogy: (10 clean lines please)
AFC Kai : if you imagine the file being “1 ton bricks”, each
component in there is another brick....
AFC Kai : then what they do is to derive “little tiny plastic
mini bricks”
AFC Kai : you juggle THOSE at full speed, in realtime
AFC Kai : THEN you say :I like it! Give it to me in THIS configuration
at 600dpi at 22" size...!!!
AFC Kai : the notion of actually juggling the real “bricks” is
incredibly silly after you did this way for 10 minutes
AFC Kai : its so obvious that it is the ideal way!!
AFC Kai : the final takes 15mins to several hours (for a
gigabyte file)
AFC Kai : there are NO pixels
AFC Kai : he zoomed into the twirl by a factor of 1 million and
there are no pixels
HSC JW : who knows how long it takes to open up a 300 meg file
on a 950 in Photoshop?
UnDoo : Cover takes me a day!
AFC Kathie : Hello, Katherine, whassup?
Neka : about 7 hours JW
>>> well not quite, but its a loooong time...
also consider you need 3 times that in RAM and also add each component to be
inserted times 3...once you are in VM its a BAD hit...!
Katherine : Hi! Kathie....not much how are you?
JeffrySG : Will this enable us to get our 10mb images up to huge
sizes with out pixellization?
>> it won’t magically add information to existing 10MB scans, but you can noodle with it lighten/darken,blur/sharpen,distort,blablabla and render THAT out in any
size...with layers and all...
AFC Kathie : SMano, welcome :)
Neka : if you have a large enough drive, if not, you'll
never get it open
HSC JW : how about 15 seconds in FITS/Live Picture...
SMano : Hi
Eliza12w : Good question Jeffry, sounds like it
AFC Kathie : Kath, been busy and crazed as usual:) See ya in
Boston?
SMano : Bye
UnDoo : Kai, how long is final image assembly?
>>> see above extra answer. About 15 mins to several hours for Gig files
SideShoBob : After it a certain res doesn't it start to look
geometric?
>>> no, not for the FITS operations, only the native imported scans may show
their limits...
Eliza12w : Is it continuous? (add to Undoo's Q)
Katherine : Sure, I'll be there. Don't know if they'll let me
out of meetings though :(
AFC Kathie : Kai, are you gonna upload this chat to the library?
Eliza12w : really
Luc : does the program slows down once the control file
(FITS?) gets huge ??
>>> I have not seen that happen yet...after hours and 20+ layers
AFC Kathie : kath, see ya I'm sure :)
AFC Kai : yeah I will upload this
Ben HSC : ...what will happen to filters that do pixel-based
effects (like Diffuse)?
>>> Ben had not seen it then. We will need to create FITS versions
AFC Kai : HI Kath2
R Thrash : How does it handle enlarging a file?
>>> very well...
FotoGeek : So how would an IVUE file be?
>>> explained above in extra comment
AFC Kathie : Thanks, Kai, I have to mosey for now, night all:)
FotoGeek : I mean how big?
>>> about 20%larger...no information is lost. only marker like things added.
AFC Kai : we need to develop FITS versions of these things
ben...lol
Arlo1 : Later!
HSC JW : by kathie..
PSANTO : Can you import any other file type into IVUE?
well TIFF to IVUE is the start today, it is perfunctory to do others, sure.
Pict to Ivue is totally obvious.
...Night Kathie.
KPT Dean : the format is probably composed of partial pictures
and procedure instructions
Eliza12w : Bye Kathie! Nice to "see" you
AFC Kathie : Nite JW :)
Ben HSC : ...or does it just treat the bitmap as a flexible
object and interpolate to give the
Ben HSC : rasterized preview?
>>> Ben and Dean saw it the next day....
Eliza12w : Good Q Psanto
SpecularI : There is a still a pixel representation somewhere
though. there has to be. That's how computers draw
SpecularI : things.
>>> there are temporary pixels in the screen analogous to the wireframe
preview modes in rendering. However those are not the real file. So NO, until
you demand a final raster output there are NO pixels other than in scanned components.
Katherine : Night Kathie :)
MintRand : So is what you're saying is, there is no actual unit
of measurement here.
>>> Right. Its different.
KPT Dean : in a way so that you can display only those portions
necessary
KPT Dean : makes sense with the thing about final "rendering"
thing
KPT Dean : very nicely done
>>> It sure is... and once I actually got it to use myself it was a rare case of
“ its even better than I had hoped” !
Eliza12w : Is the unit of measure constantly chaingin?
>>> Yes
UnDoo : How long before we see something with this technology
that mortals can afford?
Tearmoth : UnDo... good point.
>>> too early to tell how it will come out here... even at $5K there are thousands
of mere mortals that would jump to get it. But thats an entry price. who knows....
AFC Kai : one important angle for instance:
AFC Kai : the image you see a screenful at a time is NOT the
real image
AFC Kai : so you can JPEG the crap out of it...tis just like
breaking the wireframe image
AFC Kai : it doesn't matter
AFC Kai : so you can create a FITS version that runs on a
network and retrieves giga files via Ethernet
AFC Kai : and be REAL zippy at 100:1 Jpeg
Eichenbaum : Its plastic bricks
Luc : Kai is there a catch anywere , or is this just pure
Heaven ??
A Aronson : I often 'thought' about shit like this, 20 years down
the road...
A Aronson : MAybe...
SideShoBob : The size of the enlargement must be regulated by how
large the original scan is? Isn't it?
>>> yeah, its not really about ‘enlargements’ of course...
AFC Kai : very very interesting
MintRand : So it is just 'recording' what you're doing to the
image, mimick-like? <--- is that a word?
MintRand : and then it does it on its own?
>>> Definitely not as easy as that...There are others talking about
SubSampling working on lo res and playing back at high res...this runs
circles around that. you can lighten a figure eight and then unerase the center
section at 34% opacity...and then re-darken a vertical stripe. no way a play back
system could do that. its not UNDO steps, its continuous undrawing limitless (!!!!!)
Don26 : mirrors?
>>> sh*t, he figured it out! ok you got us!...
JeffrySG : How small or big will files saved in this new format
be? (1mb, 10k, 50mb)
>>> the FITS files seem to be in the low megs, I have not had it long enough to report all cases
R Thrash : lol, Don
PSANTO : It's essentially a quickly built screen preview of
any portion of the original image. Tiling, sort of.
AFC Kai : the catch is that everyone came and its an
interesting chaos
AFC Kai : no catch really
A Aronson : Damn, just when you thought you were on top of
everything...
AFC Kai : I just can't say easily what form all this will take
Arlo1 : ...
A Aronson : Help. I'm scared... 8/
UnDoo : Pardon my need for instant gratification.
Eliza12w : It's about time some technology got the jump on
keeping up with sizes and complexity of files...
R Thrash : Wonder twin powers, activate... form of: a killer
application...
Virtuality : Is it sys 7 savvy?
>>> seems to be pretty stable Beta..
Adv Man : Me too Adam
Eliza12w : instead of hardware playing catch up all the time
PSANTO : Can you import any existing graphic formats into
IVUE?
Eliza12w : Good Q Psanto, I'd like to know this too
AFC Kai : yes TIFF and PICT are being converted to IVUE
R Thrash : I bet this scares the hell out of Scitex, Quantel et
al.
AFC Kai : they were all there
JeffrySG : does it have balloon help? ha!!!
Miz Kitty : (It's magic, guys and gals...face it...Magic exists,
after all)
A Aronson : Is it compatible with my Plus?
UnDoo : Kai, Have you produced any images with this?
AFC Kai : I and Andreas Pfeiffer are the only outside France Betas
{ the final version shown at Seybold }
AFC Kai : and we have done GIGANTIC files
AFC Kai : within the demo we often make 700megs or more
Luc : How big are the files before Ripping (compared to
Tiff etc..)
>>> surprisingly small for FITS, the rest as you would expect: ask for a
4000x3000x24 @600dpi and it will be exactly that size...as if Photoshop
had done it...
AFC Kai : don't confuse the app Live Picture with the real
technology IVUE and FITS
Rumpel : You just gotta believe.
SideShoBob : In the end, you still need the hardware because it
has to render to pixels at some point.
>>> Sure
Miz Kitty : Or will you?????
Adv Man : My god...The implications this has for all of our
fields...It is amazing.
PSANTO : Good. That means you don't have to buy an IVUE
scanner (a la postscript printer)
Neka : Kai, how does the existing Live Picture fit in with
MintRand : Kai, you sait that your ended up at, say, 512:1 and
yet there was no real time lag. But somewhere along
MintRand : g the line there must be a weak link in the chain
that slows everything down or am I right off the tra
MintRand : track.
>>> yeah you are...no weak link. It keep re-generating a screenful at a time to work with.
Eliza12w : Maybe we'll get to have personal lives!
Don26 : Truly resolution independent?
Eliza12w : (right :) )
LStanford1 : Kai - if possible, post some sort of technical
explanation (with) analogies to current technology on
KPTProdMgr : lol, Eliza!
LStanford1 : how this works along with the chat
>>> I DID, YEAH!
Tearmoth : Increadible... next thing you know... man on the
moon.
UnDoo : Kai, how is the final color?
AFC Kai : final color is 48 bit and extremely good
JeffrySG : Will you be able to make images created directly in
this new format?
>>> yes you don’t HAVE to insert scans or pix you can just draw...
but its not as full featured there as Painter would be of course
then again, imagine Painter with FITS under it!
A Aronson : That's it, selling my Mac tomorrow. Gonna be a
systems engineer for HP calculators...
AFC Kai : the guy wrote a $30,000 package before this, sold by
Diadem
SandeeC : Bye
Eliza12w : TEarmoth! :)
IMSireal1 : 48bit????
Virtuality : How do we take advantage of 48 bit color?
SideShoBob : Why do you need the extra 16 bits?
SandeeC : Sorry, guys, I'm not really leaving.
SpenceW : is an IVUE printer feasible? Print IVUE description
to printer
>>> more like a FITS printer and yeah we are thinking....
Adv Man : BTW - Hi Sandee
SpenceW : and rasterize there?
FotoGeek : Kai, you should credit the programmer by name!
>>> I did, Bruno Delean, in Toulouse. Robert Blumberg is the Paris based business side and Anna Godfrey is the graphic artist who demo-d it...
PixelAnglo : we cant use it until Apple and Adobe let us in to 48
bit land...
>>> not true. The discussion of 16 bits per channel here is a little hampered. the point is not that there are 16bpc cards yet, but that with 256 steps in a channel if you process and composite and lighten darken etc you are building up errors. LP does all that in high definition 65000 steps per channel and you get to see the most important 8bits. still its MUCH smoother in the final to have the extra resolution.
Much like antialiasing seems to be “less than a pixel” sometimes, but can have big differences. Banding and such is just about weeded out totally. It really works!
HSC JW : he doesn't have aol in france...
PSANTO : That would be FOL, wouldn't it?
A Aronson : I bet he speaks fluent Assembly!
Ben HSC : Quickdraw can handle 48-bit, technically, sort of...
but Quickdraw is mostly for simple
AFC Kai : Bruno is his name
UnDoo : Lot's of IM's Kai?
PSANTO : Or is that SOL?
Ben HSC : drawing to the screen. There's no reason to have a
48-bit output device...
Eliza12w : Pixelanglo Great Name
SideShoBob : Great- Now things need to be 48 bit clean. My system
will have a heart attack.
>>> confusing items there...32 bit mode on the CPU has nothing to do with it of course... its about 256 steps per channel in R G B thats not enough.
Luc : what is Bruno Minitel adress
>>> no idea. Doubt he has one.
Arlo1 : wrong type of bits
Ben HSC : 48-bits of color depth, not memory addressing...
Eichenbaum : g-bye
JeffBurton : good point ben...
Eliza12w : SideSho, my home one will laugh out loud
HSC JW : actually its rather fascinating...Bruno writes all
c++ in long hand in ink on paper
Ben HSC : 64-bits deep for CMYK... :)
HSC JW : never touches the keyboard...
KPT Dean : QD was made with expansion in mind, but it still has
Virtuality : What will I do with 1125899902002624 colors?
HMann : not
SilverMarc : Sell a new Pantone Book.
MKlimshuk : Choke, that's what
Eliza12w : Jeff!
Tearmoth : ROFL SILVER!
Ben HSC : Virtually nothing in Photoshop is internally done
using Quickdraw. from what I can tell...
AFC Kai : when you use brushes to do transparency with this
thing
SideShoBob : Ooohh- Mr. big calculator.
Eliza12w : hee hee marc!
AFC Kai : at infinite layers
MacDancer : Hahahaaaa so funny
AFC Kai : you better believe that 256 steps is NOT enough
KPT Dean : Answer to Vir: never worry about not finding a color
HSC JW : what happened to niff's stamp collection...must be in
Venice..
JeffBurton : ben... 64 bits to store a color model with a total
gamut of say 4k colors?
Virtuality : true
AFC Kai : its not abotu named colors...its about subtlety
A Aronson : New mode in Apple Monitors CDEV: GAZILLIONS!
HSC JW : hi jeff
AFC Kai : your eye out in the open...do you really think the
world has 256x3 steps all around?
JeffBurton : hi john...
Eliza12w : Hmm what color should this be....
PixelAnglo : isnt' tht Gadzillions? :)
KPTProdMgr : HOw many colors can the eye see?
PixelAnglo : LOL
Virtuality : Kerjillions
PSANTO : Imagine the size of the box if Crayola goes 48 bit.
SideShoBob : Didn't Strata come out with a 48 bit paint program
once?
PixelAnglo : yea, Strata Paint... died and I don't know why -
AFC Kai : Strata Paint was 64 bit color buit thats didnt save
it...
AFC Kai : timing was off...not the fault of color
Miz Kitty : All of them..
KPTProdMgr : No, it's Godzilla!
HSC JW : yeah, don't you guys know Kai has a name for every
one of the 256 levels of gray...
>>> lol, I sometimes do feel as if I know each one...:)
Ben HSC : You can't really see more than 8 bits per channel
onscreen directly... but for numerical
Ben HSC : manipulation it keeps the errors (pixellation,
banding) down substantially.
MKlimshuk : aiiieee!
FotoGeek : What could this do to photography? Could we have a
sensor shoot FITS/IVUE directly?
>>> yeah generating IVUE ‘organized rasters’ is the idea
Don26 : I'm going to bed. I feel very stupid....duuh.
>>> I’m sorry Don, I tried hard to keep up, but its not the easiest thing in the world to explain... Kinda like “this guy invented electricity, and then they all ask how and why and when ..... it can obviously get very confusing to throw the terms around and all the folks here did not have a chance to SEE it for real. that alone would have helped to grasp what it does and maybe how... Certainly “WHY”...!;)
Eliza12w : brb
MacDancer : Godzillions
Luc : How efficient is IVue.. How big do the files get?
A Aronson : LOL PSANTO!!!!!!!
JeffBurton : 256 X 3 = 16m... don't think i can pick out 16m
colors...
UnDoo : What can I plot these steps on?
Arlo1 : See 'yall later...
AFC Kai : I will post the complete log of this in the keyword
KPT forum
AFC Kai : for thoise that missed parts
A Aronson : Can anyone say :"Buzz of the industry?"
SilverMarc : My favorite color is "clear." But Crayola never made
that one. (You use it to color air.)
SpenceW : posted along with some new KPTs?
JeffBurton : greater depths for calculations... not viewing or
final data...
>>> thats if Jeff, I agree about the visible gamut, but you agree there are
banding and other errors introduced with too little channel depth resolution
MacDancer : I was booted out... I missed the big demo..
Devesh : Bless you!
JeffrySG : Nature is a lot more than 64 bit.
PixelAnglo : KAI, doesn't it drive you nuts to type two sentences
think type think type think ooooo send type
>>> it was a challenge, phewww...
KPT Dean : yes, you can see the banding limitations of 24-color
with something like Curves in PS
JeffrySG : The closer the better.
SideShoBob : Were there 32 bit alpha channels in Strata Paint?
>>> 16 bit is the proper analogy..it was 3 x 16 plus 1x16 alpha, I guess.
but it never really came out , so I don’t know. In any case, its totally irrelevant
whether that app hit the market right in the discussion of calculation errors and banding, etc...
Virtuality : nature's too analog :)
AFC Kai : lol
A Aronson : Digitals to harsh... ;)
JeffrySG : no. perfectly analog...
Ben HSC : I posted a list of 48-bit advantages in the PS 2.5
folder...
JeffBurton : nature may have more than 64 bits... and maybe gods
can perceive them... not humans... (or any
JeffBurton : i've met)
AFC Kai : yeah thsi is a little tricky to type
SideShoBob : Maybe natures made up of really small 0's and 1's.
A Aronson : Kai, you need 48 bit fingers!
PixelAnglo : I never saw it but would like to check it out. Did
you know that StrataVision 3d can extrude a scan!!
>>> sure..its one of its best features in my mind
Ben HSC : However, the brightest light we can stand and the
dimmest we can see vary by a factor of 1,000,000...
R Thrash : <--- still stunned from FITS, IVUE implications
>>> me too...lol
KPT Dean : Visible light in nature is dependent upon the
quantized amount of energies for each photon
Ben HSC : not 256
AFC Kai : Jeff its the errors or multiple calculations and
multiple paste opacities that this is supposed to hel
KPTProdMgr : Silver Marc, the "clear" crayola is something we
could use here in LA!
Devesh : looks like a lull...
PixelAnglo : Naaa
KPT Dean : so there exist a finite number of visible colors
AFC Kai : counting the number of colors is silly, if you look
at the composites you will see a very very subtle
AFC Kai : effect
KPT Dean : just basic Quantum Mechanics
Ben HSC : 16-bit color is only 65,536... 1 million is 20-bit
SpecularI : Good night all!
KPT Julie : ack... bumped
HSC JW : FITS has enormous potential...
AFC Kai : that what more than 8 bits per channel should do no
more no less
HMann : night Andrei
AFC Kai : see ya Andrei
JeffBurton : yes... look at my message above... calculate, not
display!!!
>>> we agree ...
Adv Man : wb Julie
SpenceW : Zeno chopping spectra into smaller and smaller bits
Adv Man : Nite Andrei
Eliza12w : still lol
HMann : Kai - what's estimated time to Mac market,
realistically?
>>> I cannot say really, too many possible new players...
AFC Kai : the first version will ship in France in a month or
so, Advanced Imaging says
AFC Kai : what I am using is very stable Beta
AFC Kai : but the final word has not been spoken..the MacWeek
story broke just today
AFC Kai : and the award is only a few days ago
>>> not even mentioned in MacWeek yet
AFC Kai : most people have never heard of it, YET
JeffrySG : 3 cheers for Bruno!!!
AFC Kai : it belongs at the lowest level of system format
Neka : night Robin, see ya soon
AFC Kai : THEN it could get really interesting
R Thrash : cheaper than electric image
Miz Kitty : Nite, Rob!
Eliza12w : Wow I didn't even thing about the ramifications for
things like SGI.
Adv Man : Nite Robin
AFC Kai : yeah, 27 cheers for Bruno!
AFC Kai : If you have further ideas on what to do , send me a
note
Neka : things could get very very interesting around here
JeffBurton : lol...
AFC Kai : assume that no one who was not in our suite in Boston
has any idea...
AFC Kai : we were some of the first from the States to even go
to Paris to talk with them
AFC Kai : so the MacWeek was a true scoop
SilverMarc : Okay guys and gals! See you soon. And remember: No
More Pickles!
AFC Kai : Know More Pig Cells!
SilverMarc : Quit Gerkin around!
Neka : Oink
Virtuality : Pick Sells?
KPT Julie : uh oh... the masses are getting silly
GeorgeMack : Pink Sells
Neka : on a silicon high
AFC Kai : true..I better cut the log before we ruin it!
and that was it, kinda... I edited out some silliness in between, but probably
added more than I took out. I am sure there are many more questions. The next
few weeks should bring the clarity to the situation that is now needed.
I want to thank Andreas Pfeiffer for calling me...and Bruno, Anna and Robert of course. We at HSC wish them the best, I hope it can become a widespread format like
Postscript
Of course there are not-invented-here syndromes and exclusivity clamors and who knows what all can happen yet. The proverbial “car that runs on water” that was bought out by the big auto makers...;)
I especially hope that our favorite apps like Photoshop and Painter will have a chance to embrace the new approach. We would all benefit a great deal.
